Curse

Kakumei · Nov 12, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Some of you (okay, probably none of you, but that's irrelevant) may have noticed that I haven't posted much as of late. There is a reason for that--I have taken a hiatus from the game in order to try out another game you may or may not have heard of--Hellgate: London, said to be the spiritual successor of Diablo, but it draws as much from that game as it does from Guild Wars.

There have been countless threads comparing GW to World of Warcraft, but all of those threads were, at their base, completely flawed, because those two games are radically different from one another. However, GW and Hellgate are definitely cut from the same mold, and as such, a comparison thread is actually viable, and this is what I am going to discuss today.

The purpose of this thread is, as stated, to compare, and perhaps to see what GW might actually be able to learn from Hellgate.

If you're unfamiliar, the premise of Hellgate: London is that, at some point, the titular city is overrun by--you guessed it--demons from Hell, and it's up to you and however many other people to try and fight back against the invasion in a post-apocalyptic setting. The game is divided into five 'acts', much like Diablo 2, detailing your exploits as you fight your way through the destroyed streets, sewers, and even stepping into Hell itself.

Like GW, the story is progressed by a series of 'primary quests', and the two are quite evenly matched for linearity. Of course, there are also a series of sidequests you can pursue--of particular note are the rewards for these sidequests: in GW, you generally receive a decent amount of experience and gold, whereas in Hellgate, you receive barely any experience, but a vast majority of the quests will provide you with an item--weapon or armor--specifically for your class, and usually of decent quality. I'm hesitant to say which system I prefer, as getting new items is always nice, but this leaves the best (and only) way to level up in Hellgate to be to kill hordes and hordes of enemies.

The quests themselves are standard MMO variety--kill X, retrieve X items from monsters, find X NPC, et cetera. GW has mostly the same. Of note, though, is that for quests that involve getting items that drop from monsters, the game will always spawn exactly the amount you need--so assuming you explore a zone fully, you will be able to complete any quest on your first try.

Which brings us to the next point--zones. Exactly like GW, towns (subway stations, in Hellgate) are the only common areas, while all combat zones are instanced. I still vastly prefer this over other MMOs, personally, but that's irrelevant too.

In Hellgate, there are six character classes--Blademaster, Guardian, Marksman, Engineer, Evoker, and Summoner. Some of these are analogous to GW classes (Marksman and Ranger are incredibly similar, for example, and Evokers are a lot like Elementalists), but classes like the Engineer don't have too much to compare to. The classes are rather varied, and require different styles of play--my primary is a Marksman, and I spent a vast majority of the game in first-person view, and as such the game felt a lot like a first-person shooter with some RPG elements. But then, when you go to play, say, a Blademaster, the game feels a lot more like a hack-and-slash RPG like Diablo.

Teamplay is vastly de-emphasized in Hellgate--you can solo the entirety of the game--and adding more people to your party (max of 5) increases the strength and life of all the monsters present. Of course, learning how the classes best synergize together will allow you to perform much more efficiently--Marksmen have a much, much easier time when they have someone to tank for them, for example.

There is no--yet--organized PvP. You pretty much find whoever you want to fight in towns, whether duel or party, and head outside to fight. The developers have stated they're working on some kind of organized PvP, but apparently it's not much of a priority, unfortunately.

Skills work more like Diablo--you're free to use all of the ones you've acquired, but you don't get enough skill points in the level 50 cap to get every skill for you class and put enough points in them to make them worthwhile--it's far better pick a set or couple sets of skills to focus on--which leads us to another massive flaw. A vast majority of the skills are relatively worthless--people in GW, especially high-end PvPers, tend to complain about the small pool of useful skills, but that pool is much, much smaller in Hellgate.

Also, the skill animations leave...something to be desired. They're all rather basic, uninspired, and not flashy at all--even something like the Elementalist's Meteor Shower produces more 'oohs' and 'aahs' than the majority of the Evoker's skills.

Now, my biggest gripe: gear. Hellgate is a very, very gear-based game, like pretty much every RPG other than Guild Wars. Fortunately, as I mentioned above, good gear is easy to find just from questing, and you get quite a few good drops every time you go out killing.

The upside: they've come up with some very interesting concepts to help people out who can't quite seem to find good gear. Every town comes stocked with a NanoForge and an Augmentrex. A NanoForge can be used to upgrade the basic stats of items--damage, armor, rate of fire, et cetera--at the cost of crafting materials, which every single item can be broken down into. An Augmentrex can add random mods--such as a chance to inflict burning with each attack--to weapons and armor, at the cost of a decent amount of money

The armor designs are awful. All of them. My Marskman looks awful in her best gear, and it has absolutely none of the intricacy or detail of the design that the Guild Wars armor has. For that matter, I've found that to be a problem in almost every other MMO-style game I've played--Guild Wars has absolutely spoiled me for armor appearance. On the other hand, the weapons--especially the swords--all look absolutely fantastic. They're all very different, very detailed, and there's a decent variety--if they spent as much time on the armor, I'd be much, much happier.

Difficulty levels--much like GW's Hard Mode, you have the option to replay the story in Nightmare mode once you've completed the storyline, making all of the monsters radically higher-level and much, much more difficult. Does it really add replayability? I suppose, though those far I haven't tried it much--I've been, instead, making new characters to play through Normal mode.

Also regarding replayability--the game has titles, though it calls them 'Achievements', and rather than being displayed for others to see, fulfilling goals gives you Achievement Points which, at some point in the future, will be able to be traded for gear--whether cosmetic or functional isn't known. The achievements are all rather pedestrian: kill 1,000 zombies, break 1,000 crates, get to level 10 in four hours, do 20 sidequests, things of that nature.

Personally, I am of the opinion that Guild Wars should adopt a similar system for titles--allow completion to award you with cosmetic rewards, like armor, or weapons, or whatever--I know they're doing this with the Hall of Monuments and GW2, but really, why didn't they instate this in the first place?

And lastly--subscriptions. Hellgate allows you to choose whether you would like to subscribe or not--you can play either way. Subscription ($10 per month) grants you the ability to have 24 character slots, up from 3, a larger stash, access to Hardcore mode (die once, and your character is gone forever), the ability to create guilds (which, at the moment, are nothing more than a private chat channel), and access to any new content they come out with, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm enjoying it quite nicely as a free player.

I will not hesitate to say that Guild Wars remains a massively superior game, for all its flaws. Hellgate is, at the moment, up to its ears in bugs, and they've been slow to fix the most pressing ones (memory leaks, party members being invisible, vanishing equipment, broken skills). GW, at its release, looked like the most polished piece of software in history compared to Hellgate's current state. Hellgate has a lot of promise--there's a good bit of fun core gameplay, just the ability to run around, kill shit, watch things fly out--but it's very, very shallow compared to even Guild Wars' pedestrian PvE, and of course, GW's PvP wins by default since, you know, Hellgate doesn't even really have any yet, but the bit of dueling I've done hasn't seemed much fun at all--not even on the scale of Random Arena.

I do think that Guild Wars could take a couple design lessons--namely, achievement and quest rewards--but in a lot of ways, Hellgate seems like a big step backward, for all its mindless fun.

Iuris · Nov 12, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Kakumei, I've been a fanatic of Hellgate: London, I actually bought GW to while away the time until HGL came out, and having played both games, I can say this:

ArenaNet has nothing to learn from Hellgate: London. The opposite: HGL should study GW intensely to see exactly what it's missing.

Lessons of note:
-don't go for randomised maps. While in theory, you get a new map every time, in truth, the randomization kits take much more effort, so fewer are made. The result is that the game is MORE monotonous - they may be set up in a different way, but it's still the SAME tunnels you are fighting through;
-pay attention to the storyline, so that players that are interested in storylines can immerse themselves;
-do not start an online multiplayer game with a chat interface that relies on /commands for routine tasks. Don't put the chat interface somewhere, where it will interfere with the running of the game;
-do not make the game playable for single players. Center the game around group play and then add NPCs that people can use when there are no players around;
-do not make the game about gear and nothing but gear;
-count on the fact that many players in many suits of armour and many different weapons being present in a single outpost will demand a LOT of a computer. Make sure the player computer can actually display what it's supposed to display (Now I know why GW uses lower level textures for other players in outposts).

(Notice I'm not even mentioning bugs. Bugs are inevitable - all you can do is keep your bug spray handy. Oh, and don't use beta tests for marketing - use them for TESTING)

Antheus · Nov 12, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

For our next comparison: Apples vs. Pineapples. Which is better? Film at eleven.

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Hellgate seems like a big step backward, for all its mindless fun.

Emphasis - mindless.

Not everyone is fan of mindless and mindnumbing activities.

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why didn't they instate this in the first place?

Because it's not what the original playerbase wanted.

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but it's very, very shallow compared to even Guild Wars' pedestrian PvE, and of course, GW's PvP wins by default since, you know, Hellgate doesn't even really have any yet

So, PvE is subpar to GW.
And PvP isn't even there yet.

How exactly does this mean Hellgate can even be compared? It sounds like a completely useless game.

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but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm enjoying it quite nicely as a free player

In other words - the subscription isn't worth the contents it provides. You're playing the game because it's free.

I MP I · Nov 12, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Hellgate is garbage. The story is poor and not well explained. The game itself is loaded with technical glitches that make you wonder why the hell you even bothered to buy it (i got mine for free). Graphics aren't all that. The scenery and combat are totally repetitive. Even in higher levels. The quests are similar to those in WoW, so if you like WoW you might like this game. Doubtful though. It requires a subscription for things that are common not extras in other games. For example: you have to pay to have a guild/clan or access to harder difficulty levels. The $10 a month also allegedly pays for any future content they plan to release (assuming they can survive lol)

This game has changed slightly from its beta stages. Personally I feel Flagship Studios rushed to get it out. Hellgate isn't the Diablo successor end of story. For just $5 more a month you can get WoW instead. Never thought I'd say that either, but this game is bad. Although Hellgate might be a tad bit more fun than Fury which isn't saying much. GW wins hands down over Hellgate. There isn't much to learn honestly.

Nyree · Nov 12, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

There have been countless threads comparing GW to World of Warcraft, but all of those threads were, at their base, completely flawed, because those two games are radically different from one another.

This means that this topic is flawed to because GW an HG:L are completely diferent games either.

Esprit · Nov 12, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Hellgate has been a nice change of pace compared to Guild Wars. It's true that the gameplay can get monotonous and that it's filled with bugs (my drone DOES have the correct attributes to be using a certain item).

The game is fun though, the variety of weapons and classes makes for a continual interest to play and the monsters are pretty creative. One of the biggest things I like in the game is the ability to mod your weapons, it by far out does Guild Wars in modability. I can add and remove mods without having to worry about breaking an a weapon or spend vast amounts of money to get the gear I need. I've bought a few things from the in game merchants, but I've gotten almost everything I have by drops alone.

As for armor, that is definitely something to be desired, but I play in FPS mode most of the time and found that what you look like does not mean anything when you cannot see your character. And since I am almost always replacing my armor, it makes nice armor almost a moot point until I get to the level cap.

Oh, I can jump too. Take that Guild Wars! :P

A decent game, which I hope improves as devs fix bugs and add functionality (Hard mode is now available to non-subscribers). I can't see myself playing this game for the amount of time I've played Guild Wars, but it's a breath of fresh air and adds a little variety to my near-constant-Guild Wars gameplay.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 12, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Hopefully those HG flaws will be taken care of over time.
It's nice to have many different games to play. I don't like just playing one game. I don't think Jeff Strain wanted people to only play Guild Wars anyway.

The thing I really worry about is what was said about HG's skills. Is it a skill tree similar to Diablo 2? I really hope they don't continue to do that. Having to spend points on skills you'll never use to get the ones you want seems like it can be boring. I played GW in a way where I was using a completely different build everyday for my main. It was insane how addictive that variety was. I think I got spoiled.

zwei2stein · Nov 12, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

No Respecing of characters ... do i need to say anything else?

Bryant Again · Nov 12, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

GW and Hellgate are a much safer comparison indeed. To me they both feel just like Diablo, something I've stated numerous times. I feel like each outpost I'm in is just a chatroom.

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Originally Posted by zwei2stein

No Respecing of characters ... do i need to say anything else?

Well, builds and skill set-up aren't as critical in Hellgate as they are in Guild Wars. In GW, how well you do, how well you kill things, and how powerful you are depends on your build and attribute set-up. This is not so much in Hellgate: As long as you can deal more damage, I think you're okay.

Brianna · Nov 12, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Well as I've said before, nothing beats Guild Wars for me.

Tried so many games; WoW, Hellgate: London, Tons of free online mmo's (which obviously would never ammount).

And to be honest after playing those games, everything that I thought annoyed me so much in Guild Wars doesn't seem to bother me when I come back to it, I go: Wow.. thank god this game isn't like those others! lol.

Good post imo.

onerabbit · Nov 12, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

you said the armor concept wasnt that good, i love my gaurdian armor .. alot better than most/all of the warriors armor in guild wars.

one thing i hate about HG:L is the chat, going into a town, you dont get a chat box, you have to ALT - click open the Chat box, every single time you zone.

also, its still very buggy, im lvl 15/16 .. cant remember, and quite a few quests ive done ive actually got stuck behind a box, or something, and had 2 log out of the game.

Another thing that annoys me is the inventory, its not like GW, items you pick up take upto 1 - 6 slots, if not more.. there for making farming very annoying, becuase you fill up within a few kills, even if u salvage alot of it, theres always a chance of getting deent stuff, thats worth 200+ to merchant.

Thirdly, the quests are a pain, becuase it doesnt give you enough infomation on the quest, example, one quest i did, i had 2 look for this boss .. when i found him, i was wacking the shit outta him, then it comes up "Use the Sedative" .. now i didnt have a clue how to use it. i open my inventory, start clicking this thing and nothing was happening.
so i ended up killing the boss 6 times before looking on a HG:L forum for help.

Another thing is map travel, i like the relocation devices, if your full on invent you can use these to map back to a town, sell up, or what ever, and then go back through the portal, where you came from.

item stacking is a pain, expecially when your a low level gaurdian, fighting 15 lvl 15s on a quest, trying to heal up, u can only stack -20 healing kits, where i am now, im actually uses 30+ a quest, i like to rush lolz.. so yeh, healing kits tend to take up my invent space, which is another anoying thing.

i know theres alot of "annoying things" but overal i do like HG:L, but i think, Gw and HG can both learn from each other.

Kakumei · Nov 12, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Because it's not what the original playerbase wanted.

Who says? No one knew they were going to introduce titles when they did, so how do you know the playerbase didn't want rewards associated with them?

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In other words - the subscription isn't worth the contents it provides. You're playing the game because it's free.

The game isn't entirely free--I paid $50 for it--but no, I don't think a subscription is worth it just yet.

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Originally Posted by I MP I

The quests are similar to those in WoW, so if you like WoW you might like this game.

...and the quests in WoW are absolutely identical to the ones in GW. All MMOs have generally the same quests--it's a large flaw of the genre.

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Originally Posted by I MP I

For example: you have to pay to have a guild/clan or access to harder difficulty levels

You have to pay to create a guild, not to join one, and only Hardcore is subscription-dependent--Nightmare and Elite are not.

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Originally Posted by Nyree

This means that this topic is flawed to because GW an HG:L are completely diferent games either.

GW and Hellgate are much, much closer to one another than GW and WoW. This is a worthy comparison.

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The thing I really worry about is what was said about HG's skills. Is it a skill tree similar to Diablo 2?

Yes, with prerequisites and everything.

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one thing i hate about HG:L is the chat, going into a town, you dont get a chat box, you have to ALT - click open the Chat box, every single time you zone.

Press ~.

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also, its still very buggy, im lvl 15/16 .. cant remember, and quite a few quests ive done ive actually got stuck behind a box, or something, and had 2 log out of the game.

So long as you aren't a ghost, you can type /stuck to be unstuck.

To clarify, since people apparently missed it: I am of the opinion that GW is an overall superior game. I am not saying that Hellgate is the GW killer or anything like that--I'm calling it a fun game to play on the side, and though it's full of bugs at the moment, I can hope that they can give it the amount of polish it deserves and help it live up to its full potential.

onerabbit · Nov 12, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Ah, ty for pointing that out lol..
<-- still new hehe =p

~ Dan ~ · Nov 12, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Interesting read. Hellgate would be a game i'd think of buying as i really loved playing diablo back in the day, but i guess i'll wait for a bit until more bugs are fixed.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Dec 15, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

We are only allowed to post thingies related to Guild Wars in [The Riverside Inn] right?

Is this article considered to be related to Guild Wars and can be posted here?
http://digg.com/pc_games/Hellgate_London_vs_Guild_Wars

Any current and existing Guild Wars players play both Guild Wars and Hellgate : London?
Ever tried comparing both games before?

Onarik Amrak · Dec 15, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

GW wins. Hooray!

Nemo the Capitalist · Dec 15, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

hellgate wins......

Lady Raenef · Dec 15, 2007, 01:47 AM // 01:47

I like Guild Wars. I'll stick to that.

I MP I · Dec 15, 2007, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Hellgate sucks hard. Wasn't there another thread a few months ago about the same thing?

Sniper22 · Dec 15, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

That would be like comparing CoD 4 and Halo 3. Two totally different games.